Dwight Makes a Calmer Attack on Catholic Fundies

1) New blog on the kid : As Someone Said : You Catch More Flies with Honey than with Vinegar, 2) Creation vs. Evolution : A Pretty Vile Attack on "Christian Fundamentalists" - but a Parodic One, 3) Great Bishop of Geneva! : Apostatic Rejection of "Fundamentalism" in 1994, 4) Dwight Makes a Calmer Attack on Catholic Fundies

Commenting on:

Ten Traits of Catholic Fundamentalism
March 7, 2016 by Fr. Dwight Longenecker
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2016/03/ten-traits-of-catholic-fundamentalism.html

[First thing you see : portrait of angry teen with braces on teeth, shouting out with a crucifix in one hand and a Bible in the other. Unless you are new to the blog and see Dwight first.]

Dwight : I Private Interpretation

Protestant fundamentalists rely on their own private selection and interpretation of the Scriptures. Their interpretation is always the right one. Catholic fundamentalists rely on their own selection and interpretation of church documents. Like the Protestant fundamentalists they know better than the Pope.

HGL responds

False. Fundamentalist core issues are Patristic interpretation. This is even true of Protestant Fundamentalism, except for the parts that are also - a distinct phenomenon - Anti-Catholics. They have an extra core issue which is not Patristic.

Dwight : II Cafeteria Christianity

The Protestant fundamentalist picks and chooses which parts of the Bible he wants to adhere to. Catholic fundamentalists do the same. They pick which parts of Catholicism they consider “authentic” and ignore or denigrate the rest.

HGL responds

Non-Fundies are picking and chosing on what parts to take literally and what Patristics to patronise with a "but they didn't know X back in the days of Y"

Obviously, anti-Fundamentalist parts of "Magisterium", like that thing from Biblical Commission in 1994, are not really part of Magisterium, since contradicting Trent and Church Fathers.

Dwight : III Private Prophets

Protestant fundamentalists alway raise up their own preachers and prophets. Mini demagogues–they cultivate a celebrity status and promote them as infallible mini popes. Catholic fundamentalists fall down before their own prophets and preachers who they also raise to a status of authority that supersedes the bishops and even the Holy Father.

HGL responds

Possible. But "prophet" is a misnomer, I hope. Intellectual celebrities can be used as prophets above the Church, but if they are Catholics, they do not want it.

Their opponents may as easily accuse them of seeking or getting a prophet status.

And one intellectual celebrity very popular among Catholics, including both me and quite a few non-fundies, is Chesterton. Unfortunately, Ratzinger had, before resigning, given Chesterton a "prophet" stamp - when Chesterton never pretended to prophetise in the charismatic sense and so Ratzinger had contributed to the confusion by such sloppy language well before resigning.

I recently learned he had also made an ugly attack on Fundamentalism well before his pseudo-election to "Benedict XVI".

One more on this one, a kind of protestant herd mentality or rather evangelical such, has given people like Kent Hovind such a status, whether he wants it or not. And since many admirers of Sungenis are ex-evangelicals, like himself, he is getting his share of this. I am myself an admirer of his, but a critical one.

Dwight : IV Fortress Mentality

Protestant fundamentalism thrives on the fortress mentality. The little group gets together and builds walls and peers over them at al the “sinners” who are outside the enclave. Catholic fundamentalists practice the same ghetto mentality. “We few, we faithful few!” We are the Remnant of faithful ones who remain. Their response to this blog post, for instance, will be to retreat further into their self made holy fortress and throw stones over the parapet at me–not addressing my points, but resorting to name calling.

HGL responds

According to St Augustine, fortress mentality belongs to Christianity. [The city which is called a fortress will not give up its fight. De Civitate Dei, I think.] Even if Gaudium et Spes and similar apostatic writings of pseudo-Council Vatican II made "fortress mentality" an ugly word.

Then again, one can have it with fairness to opponents or with very great partiality. This varies and the great partiality is certainly there in quite a few anti-fundies as well.

Dwight : V Invincible Self Righteousness

Protestant fundamentalists are totally convinced they are right. There is no argument or discussion. Catholic fundamentalists are the same. The have their proof texts. They have their watertight world view. No discussion. No dialogue. It’s their way or the highway. Their response to this blog post will prove my point, for the ones to whom I am referring will not engage my points, but dismiss me and my message.

HGL responds

I am actually engaging point by point.

Also "being right" and "being righteous" are two very different things.

Perhaps they appear the same to a Protestant to whom all true Christians are BOTH right AND, since born again, righteous. Dwight used to be of that school some years before becoming a Catholic.

And of course to people to whom Papal infallibility is absurd, since Popes sin. Dwight used to be like that too, back then.

Dwight : VI Anger and Violence

Fundamentalism is always tinged with anger. There’s no sense of humor here. There’s no joy. There’s no laughter. Especially there is no sense of humor about themselves. Fundamentalists are angry and aggressive, and given enough rope they will move from verbal violence to physical violence. The Catholic fundamentalists who bother to read this far and react in anger to this blog post, for example, will prove my point and they will not even be able to see this themselves.

HGL responds

Your own post here is not very joyful. Being angry and being joyful are also not always opposed. Have you heard of one "vala" based loosely on St Michael, in Valaquenta? Tulkas. The angriest as well as the most laughing of valar. AND somewhat of a moral self portrait of JRRT himself ... or rather of his ideal.

Dwight : VII Fear and Loathing

Protestant fundamentalists are fueled by fear and loathing. Catholic fundamentalists are the same. There is little light, joy, peace and confidence in their lives. Instead life is narrowed down by fear and loathing. Where there is fear there is darkness.

HGL responds

I have heard Protestants describe Catholics that way.

I have not found such a description to be generally true of either Protestant or Catholic Fundamentalists. There are things we DO indeed both fear and loathe, when given occasion, that does not mean we spend all of our times in that fear or loathing.

If you, rightly, fear abortion and loathe contraception, will you admit atheist pundits to be right about your spending your life in fear and loathing of such things, just because they don't fear and loathe it?

Dwight : VIII Suspicion and Separation

Those who are outside the group are the sinners and suspect ones, but those who seem to be inside the group, but do not share the group think are suspected even more. The only ones who are worse than the sinners outside are the sinners inside the fortress. Therefore everyone inside must conform constantly, and anyone who steps outside the rules or exhibits the wrong attitude will soon be shunned, then excluded.

HGL responds

I have seen some such tendencies, but not extrememy strong ones, among fellow Geocentrics, since opposing Sungenis on parallax and angelic movers. However, I saw the exact same behvaiour from non-fundies twice over when I took fundie decisions : from Lutherans of a half modernist tinge while being pro-Catholic and Creationist, in my early teens, and from the normal Catholic parish in Lund (St Thomas, of course, since run by Dominicans) when taking sides for Lefebvre in 1993. I did it late, since Wojtyla had already committed the abhomination of Assisi II, after which the Bosnian war became even worse for a time. Banja Luka was after that peace prayer. But my excuse is that I had so many problems with my dying and then dead granny that early 1993 left me little to no space for keeping up with Church business.

Dwight : IX Conspiracy Theories

the atmosphere of suspicion and fear inevitably breeds conspiracy theories. The big, dark nefarious secret powers are always thought to be behind the scenes planning some sort of hostile attack on the select few of the faithful.

HGL responds

Well, aren't there conspiracies?

For instance, one will hear the quip "If there’s really good evidence for Design, then why don’t you submit papers to a secular peer-reviewed scientific journal and gain the support of the mainstream scientific community?" (or, against common descent, or against long ages or for insecurity of dating methods, or against heliocentrism, which the author here is not mentioning), but the behaviour of these peer reviewed journals indicate there is a kind of ban on publications of a certain type. I have this example from :

CMI : Scientific paper credits ‘the Creator’ for human hand design
Journal is forced to retract after outcry
by Paul Price, Published: 8 March 2016 (GMT+10)
http://creation.com/hand-design-peer-review

The recent example being "hand" pointing to an intelligent designer or even creator.

And Chesterton ALSO decried conspirational politics of certain papers, including one he had worked for.

Most people not agreeing are obviously not portrayed as conspirators, but as manipulated by such - or by a culture of incompetence, ultimately perhaps fostered by such, and also sometimes fostering such. At least by me.

Dwight : X Persecution complex

Fundamentalists do just about everything possible to make themselves obnoxious and unlikeable, then when people dislike them or get down on them they love to play the persecuted victim. It is almost as if they are not only looking for persecution, but are anticipating it with a sick kind of thrill.

HGL responds

Sorry, but some of the accusations about doing just about everything possible to make themselves obnoxious and unlikeable come from people disliking one anyway. Or from people who very easily take dislike ... and fear ... and loathing to people.

Dwight :

Furthermore, as we approach Holy Week, remember that it was this kind of religion which drove the Scribes and Pharisees who eventually scapegoated Jesus and made sure he was killed.

HGL responds

I heard that much from Lutheran and Anglican progressives. And, more recently, from Bergoglio, who was the friend of one such, it would seem : of Tony Palmer.

Actually, this is slander.

No place where Christ and the Pharisees clash can be described as Pharisees having Fundamentalist beliefs about hagada and Christ rejecting them.

Furthermore it is a very moot point if they even had Fundamentalist legalism about halacha, more than Jesus.

Some pilpuls which prone laxism may be more what Christ meant with "traditions of men". In the case of marriage, Pharisees were for easy divorce, with Hillel, while Encyclopaedia Judaica considers His opposition to divorce was the argument of ... Shammai. The rigorist rabbi.

The point about tithes and honouring parents can be read as Pharisees being more legalistic, in the usual sense of exacting, but in fact it seems they sometimes used "ecclesiastic business" as a pilpul for avoiding obeying a parent - that is, for less exaction.

Dwight :

I know what I’m talking about because, on my worst days, I see that kind of Catholic looking back at me from the mirror.

HGL responds

Could your worst day be when you actually attack Fundies? I have certainly seen a better job on other occasions, that is why I follow the blog. Note, if I am tired, it is more easy to write about your blog when I have something to refute. But this doesn't mean there aren't lots of articles where on good days I would have linked with the comment "Dwight, Novus Ordo possible priest, had a great article on this issue".

One more thing on the last, I don't consider speaking of "Wojtyla, Ratzinger, Bergoglio" and of "Novus Ordo" or "Vatican II Sect" in any way means disrespects to Holy Mother Church.

I think we have another Pope and he resides in Kansas. Was "Paul VI a great man"? Pope Michael considers him the Antichrist. Topeka locuta est, causa finita est.*

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre University Library
St John of God
8.III.2016

* Notwithstanding, we have another one. Bergoglio. Or False Prophet, perhaps.