Do Catholics Claim, Sins After Baptism are Only Forgiven in Confession?

I was starting to listen to a video, which this time was not from the other mystic, I think Anne Katherine Emmerick*, but from St. Bridget of Sweden (or as we say in Sweden, Denmark, Norway : of Vadstena).

Second, think about the mercy of God, because there is no man who is so sinful that his sin is not immediately forgiven, if he only prays for Gods forgiveness with an intention to better himself and with true repentance for his former sins.

Note, in order for St. Bridget to be canonised, every jot and tittle of her revelations was scrutinised to contain no doctrinal and no known factual error. This is about doctrine. If someone is truly repenting, God forgives even before confession, and even if one should have no opportunity to go to confession before dying. However, before you go to receive Holy Communion next time, except in case of huge hurry before dying, you do need to confess, you need to be forgiven sacramentally, before holding communion with Christ sacramentally./HGL

Here is the video:

What if Adam and Eve had not sinned? The Prophecies and Revelations of Saint Bridget of Sweden
Penance! | 19 Dec. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bquytGA6Rk

* I am used to the spelling Emmerich, the High German form. However, she was born in Coesfeld, a village in the diocese of Münster, and this is not far from the Netherlands, so, the Low German or Dutch form makes some sense in this context.

Let's Assume Some Orthos are Blocking

1) I am a convert from Lutheranism and from further back a basically Evangelical outlook before I was baptised, but also a revert from Neohimerite Orthos. I did not abjure Roman Catholicism when converting to them, and I did not abjure Eastern Orthodox when converting back, a k a reverting.
2) I know for a fact that Neohimerite Orthos are neither comfortable with the papacy nor with some traditional readings of the Bible, like the ones involves in Young Earth Creationism.

So, I providentially or by feeds being pushed by actual people get suggestions for watching things. One video-short is by an Orthodox priest. Another one is by Brewery Ministries, and I follow up.

My problem with such people isn't that they find some things I have written objectionable and then object to them. My problem is, they don't object to them, but decide I should not "rush ahead" (from their perverted pov), they need to give me "another chance" (after 1000 "other chances" already offered and already declined) to think things through, SO, they don't confront me in a comment "hey, I think you wrote sth incorrect here" they pray for me to get confronted with or use the feed's possibility of video suggestions, to get me to get confronted (obliquely, by someone else) to the pov they would like me to be confronted with but will not confront me with themselves.

Here are the videos (technically known as shorts) I am talking about with my comments under each:

Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic? ☦️
@RootsofOrthodoxy
https://youtube.com/shorts/NZf-ayrD0Vs?si=5o1nup8xnMNhPay5

Saint James was monarchic bishop in Jerusalem after the Twelve Apostles spread out, so these were in fact collectively ruling Jerusalem before he did.

They were also ontologically bishops, i e consecrated, before he was.

The Roman Catholic claim is not that Apostolic Succession comes only through St. Peter.

The Apostolic Succession in the order of episcopal consecration can come from any of the Twelve.

We claim however, the episcopacy can only be canonically exercised in communion with St. Peter or the canonic successors of St. Peter.

Debunking the myth: Did one language exist before Babel?
@breweryministries
https://youtube.com/shorts/pnRVzjvxSzg?si=b9Y4rO8mIrfS_yGz

1) Genesis 11:1 does not chronologically follow after Genesis 10.
2) The texts were created at the events or closely after and transmitted to Moses. Each could change in response to more correct info being added, like if the confusion of languages happened after the overview in Genesis 10, this would affect the original text of Genesis 10 and the oral tradition would add that.
3) That Moses stringed these two texts after each other that order doesn't equate to chronological order, but to the Genesis 10 text referring back to getting out of the Ark and then on to the Tower text, while the Shem genealogy refers back to the Tower text and on to Abraham. That's why the Tower text is put between these two. The chapters were only divided in the 13th C. AD by a bishop going on a hunt and doing it as he knew the Bible by heart.

How stupid can Bible scholars be?

They think it was a shared trade language, while each culture had its own language, two problems.

Glaring ones.

1) Peleg is born 101, 401 or 531 years after the Flood, depending on text. That's not long enough for languages like Sumerian and Old Egyptian to differentiate, at least not without massive conlanging. This problem can be restated "where did 'other languages' come from if this was shortly after the Flood.
2) God confuses a trade language, which differred from already different native languages. Well, that means each participant in the project already had experience of language learning and at least the concept of a lingua franca. That would not have put the project on a halt for 4500 years to Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur, but just a decade or two, while a new lingua franca was being constructed.

If on the other hand everyone had the same native language, with very minute dialectal differences (lesser than within English, since some versions of English go back to or are influenced by versions going back to dialects pre-existing Caxton's printing press, and since 500 generations were fewer generations back then), and God confronts them for the first time in their lives and their memory with language barriers, it could take some centuries until people learned how to learn someone's language. This would definitely have derailed Nimrod's project far more effectively (Nimrod's doesn't equate to him taking sole initiative, he was trusted to execute the plan).

Bible hints that people existed outside of Eden
@breweryministries
https://youtube.com/shorts/fWmR9nrT4hg?si=XUnNLuDS-qqeLsdY

By the time Cain was even born, every human creature (at his birth exactly three) was living outside Eden.

Are you aware that the idea that the creation of Adam is distinct from the creation of man in Genesis 1 comes from Jewish extra-Biblical and highly racist texts, that post-date Christianity?

There is no traditional reading of the story in which, by the time he commits fratricide, he, his parents, and his dead brother are the only people, back to three.

The Genesis 5 statement of Adam begetting sons and daughters doesn't start with Adam begetting Seth, it's placed after it just to mention it doesn't end there.

Cain's wife was his sister or possibly niece.

Remember Seth was born 230 or in the Masoretic and perhaps Samaritan 130 years after Adam was created. He and Eve were created adult and fully fertile. They didn't live in crowded cities yet in which certain couples might find other people an obstacle to taking care of their children.

By the time of the fratricide, there were plenty of people already around, Adam, Eve, their children, their grandchildren. Cain married a sister or a niece or was already married to one when doing the killing.

Brewery Ministries

@breweryministries

I don't think I'd heard that about Adam but I favor the oldest possible sources. I usually try to avoid anything written after the first century. It helps avoid some of those problems where new traditions emerged.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

@hglundahl

OK, @breweryministries ... you are aware that all the CF of the first C. as well as the NT itself in Mt 24:16-20 exclude your view that traditions emerged that did not come from Jesus and still enveloped all of the Church?

Brewery Ministries

@hglundahl I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I really haven't decided whether or not people existed outside of Eden or not. Just sharing what Bible scholars discuss and find it interesting.

Hans-Georg Lundahl

OK, @breweryministries ... if a Bible scholar pretends "whom was he afraid of, when there had been only four people and now were back to three?" that's strawmanning the traditional position heavy.

I don't believe in strawmanners, neither should you.

NOW.

Perhaps some Orthos imagined I needed to hear the anti-YEC stuff from an Evangelical, as if they were my authority. I am leaving out for now an Ortho video debunking at once Original Sin (which St. Gregory Palamas believed in, believing the Virgin was exempt!) and Total Corruption, as if these were the same. The fact I got that in the prompt however confirms my suspicion. My authority for YEC being true in its exegesis of the Bible is Sts. Augustine and Basil, not Kent Hovind and Ken Ham, even if I find them refreshing. When it comes to solving problems posed by so-called science, the modern Creationist movement has contributed, but Orthos rejecting Creation Science will nevertheless accept the "science" of Atheists, as if they likened the accreditation of Academics to the Apostolic Succession and Catholic Communion of the Bishops. Now, the Church back when St. Augustine wrote City of God actually had and still has a promise from God, Academics don't have that promise. They are people with minds created in God's image, and so am I. Their minds are not totally corrupt by Adam's sin, neither is mine. In fact, it's probable the idea we need to rely on Academics and cannot trust our own judgement comes from Calvinists believing the TULIP T, which, as said, I don't. Can some Orthos please get it into their minds that I have thought through why I returned to Catholicism, and I had thought through Young Earth Creationism and Geocentrism at least in relation to basics, before I made my excursion to them?/HGL

PS, comments under my original ones added in later, where appropriate./HGL

What is Jesuit Spirituality?

"He bore His wrath for me" — Did He? · Did the Devil Retain His Power? No · What is Jesuit Spirituality?

It obviously does not involve claiming God poured His wrath on Jesus.

I was just looking up an email from the Jew-Gone-Christian Dr. Michael Brown or his ministry Charisma House.

He outlines a problem:

For many, revival is something they want to experience, but don’t know what to do with it after a first emotional encounter.

A hope:

However, as God’s people, we CAN sustain the flames of revival to share the gospel with all of creation!

If I am right that the Catholic Church is God's REAL people, this should be even more true about Catholics.

And he gives a detailed solution:

In Dr. Michael Brown’s Seize The Moment, you’ll learn how to spread and sustain revival throughout your community by partnering with the Holy Spirit. You will be challenged to:

• make Jesus and the cross central
• reach the lost
• never downplay the importance of holiness
• steer clear of doctrinal weirdness
• keep the main thing the main thing
• and so much more

OK, some will quibble with me for indirectly promoting a book by a (technical) Protestant. Here is the deal. He is so perfectly resuming Catholicism in this outline (cannot guarantee the same is to be said for the book, though).

Let's take each part separately, and find out how that matches Jesuit spirituality. Well, except perhaps the first one or two.

spread and sustain revival throughout your community

To St. Ignatius of Loyola, sustaining his personal revival after Manresa involved getting, not indeed the whole parish, but at least a few devout women friends of his profit from it.

However, once he had a bit more meat on his bones, after studies in Paris and ordination to priesthood, he actually was more into spreading it to all Catholics. At personnalised degrees, though.

by partnering with the Holy Spirit

How about "submitting" rather than "partnering"?

But, yes, he did.

He lived from the inspirations of grace (and had a good technique on how to distinguish these from the subtle temptations of the devil).

He lived from the sacraments, which is how the Holy Spirit is given to members of the Church.

make Jesus and the cross central

Have you seen the Jesuit logo?

In the middle, you have IHS = IHSOYS = Jesus.

Above it, you have the Cross.

Below it, three nails used at the Crucifixion (one for each hand, one for both feet together).

Around all, to underline how central it is, rays like sunrays emanating from what's inside. On this painting of St. Michael throwing the Devil down to Hell, the sunrays are lacking, but the rest of the Jesuit logo is on the shield of St. Michael:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuiten#/media/Datei:Castiglione-H%C3%B6llensturz.jpg

Höllensturz – Gemälde des jesuitischen Chinamissionars Giuseppe Castiglione, 18. Jahrhundert
Giuseppe Castiglione - Der ursprünglich hochladende Benutzer war Dr. Meierhofer in der Wikipedia auf Deutsch, transferred to Commons by User:Ireas using CommonsHelper.
Gemeinfrei

reach the lost

Harlots in Rome? Sinful couples who can be saved by a marriage which the laws make difficult? Protestants? Hurons?

Sounds like St. Ignatius was perfectly on line with this part.

• St. Ignatius started a home for repenting prostitutes in Rome, under the protection of St. Mary Magdalene;
• when a couple not looked kindly on by parents risks a continued love affair without marriage, because the law of the land in France did not recognise the Council of Trent, in Place Royale, by Corneille, it's a Jesuit priest who, illegally according to France, but legally according to the Church, marries them;
• The priests in England were not just serving Catholics, but also trying to convert Protestants;
• St. Jean de Brébeuf

never downplay the importance of holiness

If you held up Luther, Calvin, St. Ignatius and St. Francis of Sales in a blind test to Michael Brown, I'm pretty sure he would clearly prefer the two Catholic saints.

The problem is, Michael Brown cannot be so unsavvy about authors and doctrines as to make a real blind test possible.

steer clear of doctrinal weirdness

While St. Ignatius of Loyola's criteria would differ highly from those of Michael Brown, as to decide what is doctrinal normality and what is doctrinal weirdness, this was to a very high degree a priority for him and for his order.

My Catholic Life! : Chapter Ten: Rules for Thinking with the Church
https://mycatholic.life/books/ignatius/part-one-background-of-saint-ignatius-and-lessons-from-the-spiritual-exercises/chapter-ten-rules-for-thinking-with-the-church/

keep the main thing the main thing

Jesuits were so willing to adapt when it came to subordinate things, they even got called out for syncretism in the question of Chinese Rites.

and so much more

For which I will give only one item, but an important one.

What did St. Ignatius of Loyola inherit from Devotio Moderna?

Well, part of it is to make everyday objects and situations remind one of God and of one's duties to God. The five vowels of Latin have their spiritual meanings (E "is crying - in Latin flet - for your sins" or U may have been feeling the pains of Jesus along with him, decades since I read that book). Those precise techniques are perhaps not the most used by Jesuits or Ignatian Exercises, but the idea is the same, telling Jesus : "All kinds of everything remind me of Thee" ...

I just called Michael Brown a "technical" Protestant, but isn't he an actual one? In Ecclesiology and in Sacramentology, alas, yes. But not in the items outlined in the above quote, or I wouldn't have quoted it. Now, when it comes to Ecclesiology and Sacramentology, usually, Holiness Churches, being usually Baptist, are further away from Catholicism than for instance Anglicans. But when it comes to personal holiness, it's actually Catholics who are in the middle, between Anglicans who claim you can be the beloved child of God while living a systematically sinful life, and between Michael Brown who wants every congregant to be on fire for Jesus 24 by 24. In Catholicism, being between both is a matter of recognising different levels, on the line of Matthew 13:8, if someone brings forth hundredfold fruit, he's obviously "good ground" but so is he who brings forth only thirtyfold.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Octave of the Immaculate Conception
15.XII.2023

Did the Devil Retain His Power? No

"He bore His wrath for me" — Did He? · Did the Devil Retain His Power? No · What is Jesuit Spirituality?

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.

[19] "The whole world is seated in wickedness": That is, a great part of the world. It may also signify, is under the wicked one, meaning the devil, who is elsewhere called the prince of this world, that is, of all the wicked. John 12. 31.

19 οἴδαμεν ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐσμεν καὶ ὁ κόσμος ὅλος ἐν τῷ πονηρῷ κεῖται.

John 12:31 in Haydock comment:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Ver. 31. Now is the judgment of the world: Their condemnation, says St. Chrysostom, for not believing. --- The prince of this world, that is, the devil, shall be cast out from that great tyranny, which he had over mankind, before Christ's incarnation. (Witham) --- By these words Christ informs the Gentiles that wished to see him, that soon he would punish the incredulous Jews, and cast off their synagogue, for their malice and insatiable hatred against him; and that the prince of this world, that is, the worship of idols, should be destroyed, and all called to the true faith. (Calmet)

I would say, "the whole world is seated in wickedness" is the correct translation, and that meaning "the world" outside Catholicism.

Published estimates for the 1st century ("AD 1") suggest uncertainty of the order of 50% (estimates range between 150 and 330 million).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_historical_world_population

According to his calculation, it was around 180 that global Christian numbers first surpassed the symbolically weighty figure of 100,000.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/how-many-christians-were-there-in-200-a-d/

So, with the Christians being less than one percent, as in Sweden today Catholics are a bit more than one percent, the remaining close to 99 % can be considered "the whole."/HGL

"He bore His wrath for me" — Did He?

"He bore His wrath for me" — Did He? · Did the Devil Retain His Power? No · What is Jesuit Spirituality?

Catholic Baroque Iconography of the Crucifixion Doesn't Think So.

Giovanni Battista Cavalieri > Die Dreifaltigkeit, mit der Kreuzigung in der Mitte und den Heiligen zu beiden Seiten, 1586.
https://www.meisterdrucke.at/kunstdrucke/Giovanni-Battista-Cavalieri/1168495/Die-Dreifaltigkeit,-mit-der-Kreuzigung-in-der-Mitte-und-den-Heiligen-zu-beiden-Seiten,-1586..html

It highly parallels Catholic Iconography of the Baptism. In both, we have the Father stretching out and down His arms around the lifted hands of Jesus. In both He has the expression of a father enjoying the company of His Son.

I'm going through

100 Bible Verses about | Gods Wrath Being Poured Out On Jesus
https://www.openbible.info/topics/gods_wrath_being_poured_out_on_jesus

These say Jesus save is from God's wrath, not that He bore it

Romans 5:9 ESV / 69 helpful votes
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 ESV / 25 helpful votes
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 ESV / 20 helpful votes
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 1:1-32 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, ...

Acts 2:38 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 32:5 ESV / 6 helpful votes
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

Revelation 3:10 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Romans 3:24-25 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Isaiah 12:1 ESV / 5 helpful votes
You will say in that day: “I will give thanks to you, O Lord, for though you were angry with me, your anger turned away, that you might comfort me.

These speak of those bearing the wrath of God without Jesus

Romans 1:18 ESV / 64 helpful votes
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 2:5 ESV / 29 helpful votes
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Isaiah 51:17 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Wake yourself, wake yourself, stand up, O Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath, who have drunk to the dregs the bowl, the cup of staggering.

Colossians 3:6 ESV / 20 helpful votes
On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

Ephesians 5:6 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 19 helpful votes
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:19 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Romans 4:15 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Psalm 75:8 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Psalm 7:11 ESV / 19 helpful votes
God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

Revelation 14:10 ESV / 18 helpful votes
He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 6:12-17 ESV / 17 helpful votes
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, ...

Psalm 34:15-16 ESV / 17 helpful votes
The eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous and his ears toward their cry. The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth.

Revelation 20:15 ESV / 16 helpful votes
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:15 ESV / 16 helpful votes
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Revelation 17:1-18 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” ...

Hosea 7:2 ESV / 15 helpful votes
But they do not consider that I remember all their evil. Now their deeds surround them; they are before my face.

Jeremiah 25:15 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Thus the Lord, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.

Matthew 21:12-13 ESV / 14 helpful votes
And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

2 Peter 3:7 ESV / 12 helpful votes
But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 16:19 ESV / 10 helpful votes
The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

Matthew 24:1-51 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. ...

Matthew 3:7 ESV / 10 helpful votes
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Nahum 1:2 ESV / 10 helpful votes
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

Revelation 16:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

Luke 3:7 ESV / 9 helpful votes
He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Romans 13:4 ESV / 8 helpful votes
For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Romans 9:22 ESV / 7 helpful votes
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Revelation 20:10 ESV / 6 helpful votes
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Ezekiel 25:17 ESV / 9 helpful votes
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

Romans 2:1-29 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. ...

Ephesians 2:3 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Job 21:20 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Let their own eyes see their destruction, and let them drink of the wrath of the Almighty.

Revelation 19:20 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 19:11-21 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...

Revelation 15:1 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

Revelation 13:8 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Numbers 11:33 ESV / 5 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
While the meat was yet between their teeth, before it was consumed, the anger of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord struck down the people with a very great plague.

These say both, contrasting both groups

John 3:36 ESV / 63 helpful votes
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 5:8-9 ESV / 48 helpful votes
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ESV / 41 helpful votes
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 3:9-10 ESV / 15 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

These say nothing of wrath, directly

Romans 5:1 ESV / 23 helpful votes
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 2:17 ESV / 21 helpful votes
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Romans 6:23 ESV / 20 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 3:18 ESV / 19 helpful votes
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Jeremiah 17:10 ESV / 17 helpful votes
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Proverbs 15:3 ESV / 17 helpful votes
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Hebrews 12:6 ESV / 16 helpful votes
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

2 Peter 2:9 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

1 Peter 3:12-14 ESV / 15 helpful votes
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

Psalm 33:13-15 ESV / 14 helpful votes
The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

Revelation 14:1-20 ESV / 13 helpful votes
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless. ...

Isaiah 40:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Revelation 12:1-17 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, ...

Psalm 147:5 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Job 23:10 ESV / 11 helpful votes
But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.

Revelation 21:1 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

James 1:20 ESV / 10 helpful votes
For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 4:13 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Romans 3:23 ESV / 10 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Isaiah 46:10 ESV / 10 helpful votes
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

2 Peter 3:9 ESV / 8 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Galatians 2:20 ESV / 8 helpful votes
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

John 8:56 ESV / 8 helpful votes
Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

Romans 5:5 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Ezekiel 33:11 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Numbers 14:18 ESV / 7 helpful votes
‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

Exodus 34:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes
The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,

Matthew 10:28 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

These say sth of how Jesus redeemed us

but do not mention His bearing the wrath

1 John 4:10 ESV / 55 helpful votes
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 2:2 ESV / 51 helpful votes
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Isaiah 53:4-6 ESV / 39 helpful votes
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:25 ESV / 35 helpful votes
Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV / 31 helpful votes
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:10 ESV / 29 helpful votes
Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Hebrews 9:22 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 27:46 ESV / 15 helpful votes
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22:1-31 ESV / 14 helpful votes
To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. ...

Galatians 3:13 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

Hebrews 10:1-39 ESV / 11 helpful votes
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; ...

Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. ...

Matthew 26:39 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

Romans 5:8 ESV / 8 helpful votes
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 18:11 ESV / 8 helpful votes
So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

John 10:18 ESV / 8 helpful votes
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

John 3:16 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Ephesians 5:2 ESV / 7 helpful votes
And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Isaiah 53:4-5 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

100 verses that "say God's wrath was poured out on Jesus" minus all 100, because each says sth other than that and does not say that, means that site showed no verses at all saying that.

I also tried this link, but the site filtering system of the Georges Pompidou Library refused to let me:

The Wrath of God Was Satisfied: Wondrous Love in ...
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-wrath-of-god-was-satisfied

Bonjour,

L'accès à l'URL https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-wrath-of- est restreint.

Catégorie : Sexe, Pornographie Description de la catégorie : Contenu pornographique et érotique. Les sites incluant un nombre de liens publicitaires pornographiques significatifs sont aussi classés dans cette catégorie

I highly doubt that the people behind the site either involved pornography or linked to it. Perhaps the nakedness of Jesus on the Cross triggered a "porn" label, or perhaps there was someone abusing the filter to censor a Christian site. Now, one can obviously ask how Christian it is with that theology, but still, it's clearly not a porn site in the usual sense of the word.

This link actually gave a more direct answer, but a wrong one.

Six Things You Need to Know About God’s Wrath
COLIN SMITH | MAY 16, 2017
https://openthebible.org/article/six-things-you-need-to-know-about-gods-wrath/

The Bible speaks about God’s wrath being poured out at the cross: “I will soon pour out my wrath upon you, and spend my anger against you” (Ezekiel 7:8). This takes us to the heart of what happened there: The divine wrath toward sin was poured out on Jesus. He became the “propitiation” for our sins (Romans 3:25), which means that the payment for our sins was poured out on Jesus at Calvary.

Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins
[Romans 3:25]

Nothing about the wrath of God being poured out, but about His justice.

What about Ezechiel?

Now very shortly I will pour out my wrath upon thee, and I will accomplish my anger in thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and I will lay upon thee all thy crimes
[Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 7:8]

Pouring out of God's wrath is very clearly mentioned, but Christ isn't. Like Jews denying the Suffering Servant of Isaias 53 is Jesus and who confuse Jesus with Israel, Colin Smith also confused Jesus and Israel, but the other way round, denying Ezechiel 7 was about the punishment of Israelites.

I am happy that the google search also brought me this essay, which basically agrees with me:

On God’s Wrath Misplaced and Misunderstood
Joshua Issa | 6 min read | Mar 14
https://itsjoshissa.medium.com/on-gods-wrath-ed80e7a868bd

So does David B. Sloan:

It’s not that Jesus was being punished by God for our sins. We read Paul too individualistically here. He is speaking of a corporate issue. Humanity (as a whole) had sinned, and so humanity was experiencing its just desserts – mortality. Romans 5 emphasizes not the fact that Jesus had died, but the fact that Jesus had committed an “act of righteousness” or “obedience” that was more powerful than Adam’s act of disobedience. “For the wages of sin is death” (i.e., human mortality is the result of our sinfulness), “but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Nowhere here does Paul express the idea that Jesus had to pay those wages for us. Instead, chapter 6 lays out a different path:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. [Rom 6:1-4]

It is not that Jesus paid the wages for us, but that we died to sin and can now experience the gift of life.

DID JESUS EXPERIENCE THE FATHER’S WRATH?
MAY 17, 2021 DAVID SLOAN
http://davidbsloan.com/blog/did-jesus-experience-the-fathers-wrath/

Thank you, David Sloan! Thank you Joshua Issa! Thank you, Catholic Church painters who gave me a better idea of the Crucifixion when I lived in Austria!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Immaculate Conception
of the Blessed Virgin
8.XII.2023

Another Reason to Believe Novus Ordos are NOT All Apostates

Creation vs. Evolution: In Portugal, the Dogma of the Faith Shall Not Be Lost · Great Bishop of Geneva!: Another Reason to Believe Novus Ordos are NOT All Apostates

Not saying there is no apostasy going on anywhere, but just saying it's not universal.

I have seen less than five minutes of this film, and I am already confident, after she died, Sr. Clare Crockett was immediately (or the second she was judged) in a better position to pray for us, than we for her:

All or Nothing: Sr. Clare Crockett - Full Movie
Home of the Mother, 3 Nov. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSKiESB1Pfs

I Loved This Song While I Thought It Was Protestant (Pentecostal or Sth) ...

Great Bishop of Geneva! : I Loved This Song While I Thought It Was Protestant (Pentecostal or Sth) ... · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Avec vous toujours avec vous ... the Composer

Be Thou My Vision | a new duet version by Abby and Annalie #HearHim
Abby & Annalie, 5.IV.2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xbH_LccN0

And here is what wiki tells me ...

The original Old Irish text, "Rop tú mo Baile", is often attributed to Saint Dallán Forgaill in the 6th century.[4] However, scholars believe it was written later than that. Some date it to the 8th century;[5] others put it as late as the 10th or 11th century.[6] A 14th-century manuscript attributed to Adhamh Ó Cianáin contains a handwritten copy of the poem in Middle Irish, and is held at the National Library of Ireland.[7] A second manuscript is at the Royal Irish Academy, dating from about the 10th or 11th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Thou_My_Vision

Sourced on footnotes:

4) Be Thou My Vision Archived 2012-05-19 at the Wayback Machine at Cyberhymnal
5) Kenneth W. Osbeck, 101 More Hymn Stories, Kregel Publications, 1985, p. 43
6) Gerard Murphy, Early Irish lyrics: eighth to twelfth century, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1956, pp. 42–45, 190–191
7) Wright, Sheila Louise. ""Rop tú mo Baile" A Traditional 14 th C. Irish Poem/Song". Retrieved 11 December 2017.

" Rop tú mo Baile " A Traditional 14 th C. Irish Poem/Song - by Sheila Louise Wright
https://www.academia.edu/28437315

PS, in fact there are four OT names, apart from Miriam, which are kind of near synonyms to Mary. Abby = Abigail is one of them. The full list is: Jael, Ruth, Abigail and Judith. Jael and Judith because they killed men who by tyranny and fighting against God's people were images of Satan, whom Mary defeated. Ruth because she married an old man, and is ancestor of Christ. Abigail because she prevented King David of killing an Israelite./HGL

PPS, in case someone misunderstood the title, I love it even more now I know it is a Catholic lorica./HGL

Father Hartmann Grisar, S. J.

The History of Rome and the Popes in the Middle Ages, Volume 1 by Hartmann Grisar Part 1/2
LibriVox Audiobooks | 3 Sept. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeDJAL5vUqA

The History of Rome and the Popes in the Middle Ages, Volume 1 by Hartmann Grisar Part 2/2
LibriVox Audiobooks | 3 Sept. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45-NKjMZfv4

On the author, so far no English wikipedian article, but here is a German one:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartmann_Grisar

Can We Agree Pre-Adamites is Not a Christian Idea?

Creation vs. Evolution: Some Observations · Great Bishop of Geneva!: Can We Agree Pre-Adamites is Not a Christian Idea?

Here is from the French wiki on Préadamisme.

Malgré la prédominance de la croyance adamiste, certains courants religieux occidentaux et moyen orientaux continuèrent de croire que des hommes ont pu exister avant Adam. C'est le cas de la Familia Caritatis, une communauté religieuse frisonne fondée au début du xvie siècle1. Les Maimonïdes argumentèrent aussi sur les faits présentés par Ibn Wahshiyya.

En 1591, Giordano Bruno mort sur le bûcher pour avoir affirmé par ailleurs que l'homme est parent des singes, faisait valoir qu'il n'était pas crédible que les Juifs et les Éthiopiens puissent avoir le même ancêtre il y a 6000 ans, et que par conséquent soit Dieu a créé plusieurs lignées différentes, soit les Africains sont descendants d'hommes préadamiques2.

Let's try to translate this correctly.

Despite the predominance of the Adamist [monogenic] belief, some of the religious currents of the West and the Middle East coontinued to believe that men could have existed before Adam. It's the case with Familia Caritatus, a religious community from Friesland, founded in the beginning of the XVIth C. The Maimonide Family also argued about the facts presented by Ibn Wahshiyya.

In 1591, Giordano Bruno [later] dead on the bonfire for having furthermore affirmed that man is akin to apes, asserted that it was not credible that Jews and Ethiopians could have the same ancestor 6000 years ago, and by consequent, either God had created several different human lineages, or the Africans descended from pre-Adamite men.

Now, "continued to" is a fairly tendentious way of putting it, since the previous statements, like those concerning rejection of the Sabean myth that Ibn Wahshiyya just reported don't enforce the idea there had previously been any acceptance of pre-Adamites, but that Familia Caritatis was involved in pre-Adamism, well, it so happens, this seems to be footnoted.

Almond, 1999, p. 51. And Almond stands for Philip C. Almond, Adam and Eve in Seventeenth-Century Thought, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1999. (ISBN 0-521-66076-9).

The Giordano Bruno assertion from 1591 is also footnoted.

Graves, 2003, p. 25. And Graves stands for Joseph L. Graves, The Emperor's New Clothes : Biological Theories of Race at the Millennium, Newark, New Jersey, Rutgers University Press, 2003. (ISBN 0-8135-3302-3).

So, if like me, you reject pre-Adamite men, you should reject Familia Caritatis, an Anabaptist sect founded by Henry Nicholis.

You should also reject Giordano Bruno, a man known as being burned for Heliocentrism — but in reality as this example shows, there was much more to it.

While technically Galileo did not promote Little Green Men, let alone pre-Adamites on earth, Giordano Bruno and Kepler had already set the tone for accepting the certitude to hypothesis of extraterrestrials as popular evidence for Heliocentrism — in the sense that any extra-terrestrial on his own planet would consider his own planet as the centre of the universe with "as much apparent" and ultimately "as little real" ground as we naturally (and reasonably, as long as you don't bring in extraterrestrials) tend to suppose Earth to be so.

I say this was a popular argument. Euler in his Letters to a German Princess instructed her that Newton, a very great physicist, had proven Earth had to orbit the Sun, not the reverse, but he didn't get into details. However, an argument which he did give on her supposed level of understanding was little green men. As I screenshotted and sourced here:

Euler als "Astronom"
https://aufdeutschaufantimodernism.blogspot.com/2017/12/euler-als-astronom.html

This being from letters 58 and 59 to the princess. As far as I can tell from later history, Friederike Charlotte of Brandenburg-Schwedt as well as other members of the Prussian high nobility and princes did believe Euler. And her own impression of his teaching was not the only decisive influence he had:

Friederike Charlotte was partly educated in Prussia, together with her sister Louise. Between 1760 and 1762, the mathematician Leonhard Euler sent her numerous letters in French about mathematical and philosophical subjects. These letters were published between 1769 and 1773 under the title "Letters to a German Princess" and were printed in Leipzig and St. Petersburg. The French edition alone enjoyed 12 printings. It was the Age of Enlightenment and Euler tried to explain physical issues and in particular their philosophical background in a generally understandable manner. Euler may have been employed as her teacher.

In other words, we don't know if they met, we do know that she was receiving epistolary instruction from him, and that the letters were widely spread outside this original context.

So, the tendency was, in the centuries that saw the social triumph of Heliocentrism, to downplay (at least to some readers) the mathematical proofs in favour of speculations about Little Green Men.

It may be worth while to take another look at the English article on pre-Adamism.*

The first known debate about human antiquity took place in 170 AD between a Christian, Theophilus of Antioch, and an Egyptian pagan, Apollonius the Egyptian (probably Apollonius Dyscolus), who argued that the world was 153,075 years old.[1]: 26 

An early challenge to biblical Adamism came from the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate, who, upon his rejection of Christianity and his return to paganism, accepted the idea that many pairs of original people had been created, a belief termed co-Adamism or multiple Adamism.[2]: 6  [1]: 27-28,125 

Augustine of Hippo's The City of God contains two chapters indicating a debate between Christians and pagans over human origins: Book XII, chapter 10 is titled Of the falseness of the history that the world hath continued many thousand years and the title of book XVIII, chapter 40 is The Egyptians' abominable lyings, to claim their wisdom the age of 100,000 years. These titles tend to indicate that Augustine saw pagan ideas concerning both the history of the world and the chronology of the human race as incompatible with the Genesis creation narrative. Augustine's explanation aligned with most rabbis and with the church fathers, who generally dismissed views on the antiquity of the world as myths and fables, whereas Jewish and Christian claims were based on revealed truth.[1]: 27 

Augustine did take a critical view of the young earth narrative in some aspects, arguing that everything in the universe had been created simultaneously by God, and not seven literal days. He was primarily concerned with arguing against the idea of humanity having existed eternally rather than a Bible-based chronology of human history.[3]

So, not only should a Young Earth Creationist not embrace Anabaptists of the XVIth C, but he should embrace Augustine of Hippo, a clear Catholic.

The last of these paragraphs again has tendentious phrasing, the idea of a simultanous creation doesn't in any way make the universe less young, and a Bible-based chronology of human history, along with rejecting Gap Theory and Day-Age Theory = Young Earth Creationism. Obviously a "one moment creation" is the very opposite of Day-Age or Gap Theories.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Moses
4.IX.2023

In monte Nebo, terrae Moab, sancti Moysis, legislatoris et Prophetae.

* Instead of discussing the wikipedian footnotes, I'll just give them under this footnote:
1) Popkin, Richard Henry (1987). Isaac La Peyrère (1596-1676): His Life, Work, and Influence. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill Publishers. ISBN 90-04-08157-7. Retrieved 25 February 2021.
2) Livingstone, David N. (2011). Adam's Ancestors: Race, Religion, and the Politics of Human Origins. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-8813-7. Retrieved 25 February 2021.
3) Young, David A. (1988). "The Contemporary Relevance of Augustine". Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith. American Scientific Affiliation. 40 (1): 42–45. Retrieved 23 April 2021.

Jeremias 7 and 44 and the Duchess of Dorchester

I came up with the title before I had heard of the wrestler The Duke of Dorchester and hope he won't mind.

Now, in Jeremias, the phrase "the queen of heaven" occurs once in chapter 7 and several times in chapter 44. The most prominent place would be chapter 7:18, since it involves God's anger.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead the dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to offer libations to strange gods, and to provoke me to anger
[Jeremias (Jeremiah) 7:18]

So, some suppose this means God is angry at anything referred to as the Queen of Heaven, including "Catholic Mariolatry" - we will see in a moment how I respond, but first a detour. I think it will be rewarding.

Suppose a King of England decided the third daughter of a prince of Wales or of a King, whoever comes first, shall have a new title, Duchess of Dorchester. Her husband shall have the title Duke of Dorchester (Pete Doherty, hope you don't mind!). Their offspring shall be Dukes of Dorchester until next time there is a third daughter of the king or of the Prince of Wales, whoever comes first. However, such a person is not yet there on earth, only the plan is.

Then suppose a drag queen even less feminine and less decent than Conchita Wurst turns up and decided to take the stage name "Duchess of Dorchester" ... I think a King of England would be annoyed, perhaps not HM Charles III, he's known for preaching tolerance to people of the habits of Conchita Wurst, but earlier kings of England (including those who privately were as indecent or even less decent than Conchita) most certainly would. Even James VI and I would have such a man drawn, quartered and beheaded. Right ....?

Now, for the relevance. Even to people in Dorchester, Heaven is more important than Dorchester. To God, most certainly. No one, including demons, is outside His jurisdiction (and female goddesses in at least many respects, perhaps not Athena as appearing to Ulysses on occasion, are drag queens). So, He has decided He will be born. He has decided who His mother will be. He has decided She will be Queen of Heaven. The anger of God expressed in Jeremias 7:18 is not about people giving Her the title that is Hers, Queen Mother in Heaven, but about people giving a demon a similar title (the Hebrew, I heard Patrick Madrid or someone say, has a word meaning ruling queen or queen consort in Jer 7:18). I think the case for God hating "Mariolatry" has been answered.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. John the Baptist
24.VI.2023

Sorry, HMK Charles III, I mean, of course!

Why is Romans 8 Not Prooftext for Calvinistic "Perseverance of the Saints"?

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Defeating Calvinism, with a Little Help from a (so far back then) Calvinist · Great Bishop of Geneva!: Why is Romans 8 Not Prooftext for Calvinistic "Perseverance of the Saints"?

Here are the two immediately relevant verses:

29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Repetition from the Stuckey prompted* video comment:

1) the first two concepts are if chronologically ordered indication that God foreknew some before He predestined them.
2) because all the following pairs of concepts are chronologically ordered so that the first stated term comes before the next stated one.

All the examples:

• the predestination is from eternity, but the call comes in time, i e God's call to Abraham when he was 75, or God's call to Saulus on the road to Damascus.
• The calling comes before the justification, which involves a yes to the call;
• the justification, being in this life, is prior to the glory in the life to come.

One could reply, the foreknowledge and the predestination are both from eternity, and there is therefore no temporal sequence between them. This doesn't deny a metatemporal or motivational sequence, within God's eternal decision. So, the text is in fact a proof text for scientia media. Luís de Molina's concept of it would be close.

But the Calvinists would use the passage also in another way, namely to deny that any truly justified person could ever get lost. This would be deduced from the last pair:

And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If taken with complete generality and unconditionally, this would spell out the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" ... Two replies.

However, (first), there is a possibility that one or more pairs of concepts may hold the key to this being conditional, on the persons free will.

Whom He called, them He also justified, is this universal?

Jesus called a rich man to poverty, and the rich man walked away sadly. The call was conditional on the rich man's free will.

However, it is possible that the rich man was already justified, and didn't miss out on Heaven, but only on safer and happier ways of getting there with more merits for eternity. It is also possible he later followed the call, like the younger son who at first said no to his father, but then went on to do his bidding.

The other pair is, foreknowledge and predestination. Those who are not predestined to glory are technically in the Catholic Theology not at all known as "predestined to damnation" - that would be heretical, and go against the Council of Frankfurt "Deus neminem predestinat ad malum" - but as "foreknown" (i e foreknown as not making it to heaven). This means, both the predestined and the not predestined are both foreknown by God, so the first pair

whom he foreknew, he also predestinated

is proof that the sequence is in fact conditional, and not automatic and unconditional. Except of course that predestination itself cannot be foiled.

Further, second, one can say, the last pair

whom he justified, them he also glorified

is only validly universally true in the given context of precisely predestination, since this is mentioned before.

The one problem which can be posed is, if predestination cannot be foiled, how is this not irresistable grace? First, because God's offer of grace is extended further than to only the predestined ones. Second, because predestination is never foiled, this is only by grace being unresisted or efficient, not by its being also irresistable. The practical consequence is, one can say "Deus, facienti quod in se est, non denegat gratiam" - God is not refusing grace to anyone doing what he is then and there, with nature and with graces already given, able to do. The very thing the Reformers Luther and Calvin so vehemently denied.

A further confirmation in the previous verses:

25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. 28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.

To them that love God ... reminds a little of St. Augustine saying, what Crowley gave a truncated quote of: "have God's love, and do what thou wilt"** - but either way, it makes nonsense of the idea that "the natural man is unable to love God" namely not just "out of his own powers" as we Catholics say, but "totally" as the Reformers say, up to a presumed and always dramatic moment when total hatred of God yields to total love of God motivated only by this remarcable mercy and never by anything else.
/Hans Georg Lundahl

* i e Defeating Calvinism, with a Little Help from a (so far back then) Calvinist ** Habe caritatem, et fac quod vis.

Does the Bible Say How Many Books It Has?

Great Bishop of Geneva!: Does the Bible Say How Many Books It Has? · somewhere else: Not Hallucinations - Argument II · Creation vs. Evolution Do Flood Stories Around the World Prove Oral Transmission Inaccurate?

Note, not which books, but how many?

Paul, and Sylvanus, and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace unto you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. We are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you towards each other, aboundeth: So that we ourselves also glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith, and in all your persecutions and tribulations, which you endure, For an example of the just judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which also you suffer.

That's the beginning of II Thessalonians.

But the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.

Acts 17

So, if there is one thing which unites Thessaloniki and Veria, it might give us a road.

Veria (Greek: Βέροια or Βέρροια), officially transliterated Veroia, historically also spelled Berea or Berœa,[2] is a city in Central Macedonia, in the geographic region of Macedonia, northern Greece, capital of the regional unit of Imathia. It is located 511 kilometres (318 miles) north-northwest of the capital Athens and 73 km (45 mi) west-southwest of Thessaloniki.

Sorry, a clue. And yes, I think the road is the clue.

73 kilometers - the full Bible has 73 books.
45 miles - miles is an older measure than kilometers, right? - the OT has 45 books.

Wait a minute, 45 + 27 = 72 ...

Well, the official Catholic way of counting it is, "72 books, or 73 if Baruch be counted separately from Jeremias" ... So, the whole Bible is somewhat fluid between 72 and 73, and the Old Testament, by consequence, between 45 and 46.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Good and Holy Friday
7.IV.2023

PS - the Hackers and other onliners would arguably agree with 73 books for another reason.

50 + 40 + 27 + 36 + 34 + 24 + 21 + 4 + 31 + 27 + 22 + 25 + 29 + 36 + 10 + 13 + 14 + 16 + 16 + 42 + 150 + 31 + 12 + 8 + 19 + 51 + 66 + 52 + 5 + 6 + 48 + 14 + 14 + 3 + 9 + 1 + 4 + 7 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 14 + 4 + 16 + 15 = 1077
28 + 16 + 24 + 21 + 28 + 16 + 16 + 13 + 6 + 6 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 3 + 6 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 13 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 22 = 260
260 + 1077 = 1337

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

From Burger King to Asking Saints in Heaven for Intercession (a Ramble)

I saw a Burger King restaurant while getting here. It had a very awkward picture of a finger (or two pictures of two fingers) with grill marks on it.

I got reminded of a humouristic verse in Readers' Digest a few decades ago. It's not my own production, but I still am fairly sure of the verses:

To fry the steaks upon the grill

is fraught with risk and tedium:

the beefs are usually quite rare,

the fingers well or medium.

If someone had that kind of experience with grilling, what should he do, as a Catholic?

Well, today he could obviously let the grill be or fry fish on it instead, since it is Lent, but usually, when he has business to feel that "to be a vegetarian is a big missed steak"?

He should pray to St. Lawrence. Now, lots of Prots would at this point start protesting something like "that's idolatry, that's polytheism, that's praying to different god with different functions instead of to one God for all concerns!"

Not so fast, please.

He was a deacon, of Rome, and he was martyred by being put on a grill. He told the executioners when to "turn the steak" ... some pretend that the martyrdoms in Roman law are fantasy, since some versions of the death penalty referred to don't occur in Roman law. And Roman justice obviously went by Roman law. Yes, in some cases it did, like when it said a non-Roman criminal (like the Christian non-Roman Peter, guilty of holding a Bacchanal over 5 participants or of burning down Rome) could be crucified. Or when it said that a Roman criminal (like the Christian Roman ciztizen Paul, also guilty of holding a Bacchanal over 5 participants or of burning down Rome) could be executed by a sword cutting off his head. But this was still before the Codex Iuris Civilis, before Ulpian, and therefore criminal justice in Rome was something of a Wild West affair - except the sheriff was the chief involved in lynchparties. So, yes, very creative executions did occur. That ceased later on, except such as should be codified by law, when Rome became Christian.

So, what's the connexion with his martyrdom and invoking his intercession if you have troubles keeping your fingers totally raw or your steaks turned in time? Well, suppose for a really wild, wild moment of imagination that invoking him isn't spiritism, unlike what some learned in Bible school and he could hear you because God told him ... he would probably see a brother in Christ in a trouble he could relate to (go figure why!) and as he had given his life for Christ, he was arguably in a stronger position to pray about it than the guy who just uttered a cuss word over his fingers getting "well or medium" ...

Isn't that why you go to your pastor and ask him for prayers, and a different pastor depending on the issue? A brother in Christ, who is probably having a closer walk with God than yourself, and who can relate to your issue?

If pagans prayed to any special god about grilling, it would probably be the "god of fire." That one we neither pray to principally, nor ask for any intercession.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Paul of Narbonne
22.III.2023

Narbone, in Gallia, natalis sancti Pauli Episcopi, Apostolorum discipuli, quem tradunt fuisse Sergium Paulum Proconsulem. Hic, a beato Apostolo Paulo baptizatus, et ab eo, cum in Hispaniam pergeret, apud Narbonem relictus, ibidem Episcopali dignitate donatus est; ibique, praedicationis officio non segniter expleto, clarus miraculis migravit in caelum.