Asaph Vapor kept asking "where does it say successors?" · Do We Need Unwritten Traditions?
Instead of reformulating once more to him, I claim not just the liberty but the duty to interpret Bible verses with the logical consequences following their context.
Matthew 28: [16] And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
I am now straight on going to weaken my case by giving some Catholic comment:
Ver. 16. The eleven disciples went into Galilee, yet not till above eight days after. As to the order of Christ's apparitions, in the gospels: He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, and to other devout women; then to S. Peter; next to two disciples going to Emmaus; after that to the apostles that were all together, except only S. Thomas. These apparitions were all on the very day he rose from the dead. We find also (Jo. xx,) that eight days after he appeared to all the eleven apostles, Thomas being then present, to whom he said, put in thy finger hither, &c. This is generally thought to have happened at Jerusalem. When the apostles and disciples were gone into Galilee, he shewed himself to seven of them, as they were fishing on the lake of Tiberias. Jo. xxi. 4. We read also in this chap. (v. 16,) that he appeared to them on a mountain in Galilee: what mountain is was we know not. It may be of this apparition that S. Paul says, (1 Cor. xv. 6,) Then was he seen by more than five hundred brethren at once. He also tells us he appeared to S. James. See v. 7. But when or where this was, is not mentioned. In fine, Christ till his ascension frequently appeared to them, and conversed with them. He taught them to understand the holy Scriptures, and all that belonged to their ministry: he gave them power to forgive sins: He sent his apostles as his heavenly Father had sent him. He gave in particular to S. Peter the charge over his whole flock: He promised to send down upon them the Holy Ghost; and to remain with them himself to the end of the world, i.e. with his Church. Wi. — It is supposed that then and there took place what S. Paul mentions, that Jesus Christ shewed himself to more than 500 of the brethren together. V.
Ver. 17. They adored: but some doubted. This, says Theophylactus, need not be understood of the apostles, but of others, who had not seen Christ after his resurrection. It may also be expounded of those disciples who had doubted at the first, and particularly of S. Thomas the apostle. Wi. — These doubted not of the resurrection or divinity of Christ, but whether the person that appeared to them was really their Master, Jesus Christ. V.
HAYDOCK CATHOLIC BIBLE COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT : MATTHEW 28
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/ntcomment30.shtml
Oh bother, I had just decided that the appearance to the 500 being this occasion was a wishful eisegesis invented by Protestants ... I don't know what Catholic commenter V. is (Wi. is bishop Witham, an English RC bishop residing in Douay or Rheims back when England was under the Penal Laws, but I don't know who V. is.
Anyway, my point is this, in weakened form : as the eleven are specifically mentioned, one may presume that the words are adressed to them in front of the 500, not to all of the 500.
Especially, that "some who doubted" were not the ones to whom Christ adressed these words, but before whom He adressed them to the eleven, including St. Thomas Didymus who doubted no more.
In other words, these words are adressed to a restricted, if not total audience, at least adressee (like a Queen telling a new "Sir" sth like "I dub thee", before a big audience, but the newly knighted person is the adressee : the bystanders are not being dubbed knights).
Now.
He tells them (whether 11, if I'm right, or at worst 500, if I'm wrong, but it seems less likely):
- He is giving them a task
- He is supporting them (by context presumably for that precise task).
The exact scope of the task tells us, they had successors:
- it spans all nations, including those where the 11 never went (Lapps and Esquimaux, Amerindian and Aboriginee)
- it spans all days, including after they had all died.
How can someone promise to be with someone else in a task on earth after he dies? Only if that someone else has successors.
This means, the eleven, or at worst the 500, have successors to this very day, unless Our Lord was liar, mistaken or a myth.
However, if it were the 500, one could imagine it were simple faithful, rather than clergy, even if the 500 later were a kind of clergy (I suppose the widest sense of "apostle" in Andronicus and Junia, his wife, I presume, involves those among the 500).
But here is the deal : we do not find any continuous community with lay equality rather than clergy from back then to our time, we find only continuous communities in Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Assyrian churches, which are churches that claim they have bishops succeeding the 12.
This means, we can discount successors being those of 500 indistinctly.
Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Jean Brébeuf
19.X.2020
PS, who is "Asaph Vapor"? It's a signature on youtube, belonging to a Protestant (unless it's a real good actor) and to someone whose mother language is rather French than English (or any other Germanic known to me, he's not so good an English speaker as to avoid all solecisms over a long discussion, though it was just one and a tiny one in impatience, plus a French rather than Spanish form of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which Spanish form is standard in the English speaking world, due to the site of the apparition being in Mexico. Here is a link to some of my debates with him (or her?):
Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Answering Asaph Vapor
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2020/10/answering-asaph-vapor.html
